Ed’s
son Cecil Koupal interviewed by Dwayne Hunn around March 1995
On
Dad’s music:
"Ed
Snake Koupal," became one of big haunts.
His band was pretty popular -- like Les Brown Band... Trio too. Played Catalina Island Ballroom – I’ve seen
pictures of him and his tux standing by his bass.. With a bunch of entertainer
types.. At 19-20, before she became news, dad dated Shirley Temple...
Mom
had lot of material about dad. I once found a black book with her name in it...
On one page there's Shirley Temple’s number in the back........
On
Dad’s egg collecting invention:
Dad’s
invention was before chickens were organized in cages going the length of the
coup. When dad was there chickens were
in nests; they had to be converted from nests -- eggs, cart on wheel water out
on metal troughs.... or go up on wire
racks... A worker hand-gathered eggs out of nests...
What
dad did do was invent sheet metal carriers, enabling them to carry more eggs
and have less broken... Dad was fairly
inventive.
Sheet
metal construct, had handle on it and with square, compartments... Like golf
balls in rubber metal basket... Sheet metal box, twice the height of eggs,
veterinary caddy, long and narrow.....That was his invention...
On
parents entering politics and coming of age:
Dad
was in car business, worked in management.
Toward end of regular working life, mom and dad got inkling that they
were upset about things. Ronald Reagan
became governor. Soon after that they
went ballistic over taxation on property.
They owned a home and weren't working full time. Around 62-64, taxes were starting to gag
them.. They met other people who were more concerned than just average people.
When they got wind of some corruption they started filing lawsuits vs. a
development corporation in Rockland area, and the flied lawsuits got in the
papers… From there I recall watching television and watching a nurse from San
Francisco who started a Recall Reagan campaign . Parents met her and
volunteered and then soon jumped ship when she wasn't very capable and took
over her effort. Ran fist and second Recall Reagan campaigns... They taught
themselves the ropes of initiative action... Using initiative as major tools
Dad got to believe that initiatives would be good for lots of things.. Then he
figured out that he needed to print his own petitions because he couldn't
afford the printing costs that were so expensive.... Formed People’s Lobby’s own printing presses, and did his own
photography stuff... They accomplished
a lot.
I
was 18 graduated in June and they moved to LA a week later... Came home and saw
note on table "Moved to LA -- follow when you can...” They literally
walked out of their house, but apparently they hadn't made a house payment for
awhile. Of course, I didn't know all
those internals..
House
was upper middle calls --- result of the later part of his working life. Mom
had stated going to college, got a couple years under her belt. But she was basically self-read and
self-taught. She was a voracious reader.
Paperbacks were spread all over the house, tons of 'em... My Dad was
more charismatic than intellectual. Mom, on other had, was more intellectual
and more of a follower type. Two
together were a complete person...
Stayed
that summer and opened it up as a party house... Basically I trashed it, being
18 and totally free and all the rest. Got friends to feed me that summers. Didn't get involved in any People’s Lobby
things, although prior to that while still in high school I had run petitions
for my dad in LA, just errands mostly.
... I was not that interested in
what they were doing...
When
I left the house, I didn't go to college. Goofed off that winter, spiraling
down to no-place. By next summer I was
just working odd jobs. Then I decided I
wanted to go to college.
Friend
of my parents in Roseville, Isadora and Ward Simpson, had been involved in
their taxpayer association and they offered to take me in as border if I would
go to college.. That was pretty neat.
Lived with them couple months that spring and enrolled in second
semester and worked in gas stations and paid them room and board. Then in LA
slept on People’s Lobby couch, worked in gas stations, and saved money for
college... Then came back to Roseville and went to Sierra College and then
Sacramento State... Never moved back in with my parents...
Also
had started a vocational computer programming school – that’s what I did for a
living, write software for a living.
During
that summer I had a donated ratty studio apartment. I slept on couch and my
sisters shared the same room.. Never really visited them for any length of time
for 2-3 years after that. Till last year of my dad's life, then suddenly I
happened to get job in LA as a programmer.... Had to work in LA in first professional
job when dad got sick.... And I was
needed to be around.
You
hate Ralph Nader?
Oh,
No. At that time, I probably wouldn't
have had an opinion one way or another and probably just thought that what
Ralph was up to was a reasonable thing and gee that's nice to have.
Today,
when I hear Ralph talk, for most part I disagree with most everything he
thinks.. For example, I resent having to wear a seatbelt.. I consider it an
intrusion on my personal freedom. I
think if I had a motorcycle I would resent wearing a helmet. I think RN was the pioneer of that kind of
public safety, where government dictates to me. Being a conservative, a
conservative would say this, " Government dictates to me that I have to
wear a helmet or seatbelt.” Ralph would
say, on other hand, that “The government is protecting you."
I
get this terrible feeling that government has become intrusive, paternalistic,
overprotective... I admire Ralph form standpoint that, and the same as I did
my parents, that he is an action guy.. And he has spent his entire life
like a Mother Teresa of politics. I
happen to know, because I have seen it up close, what people like that actually
receive for their efforts. From an economic standpoint it is incredibly
minimal. I admire that... So from the self-sacrifice standpoint, you
could admire Ralph or my parents for at least living the true ethic of what
they represent. They didn't have a
double face, and they actually did, almost in a religious way, believe what
they were preaching.... So just from a peer stand point, you have to say in
history that's the type of person you should be able to admire, even though you
don't agree with them...That's way I feel..
Isadora
and Ward Simpsons.. were your surrogate parents?
It's
odd. Growing up in my parents’
house. They came from a rural
background and, of course, my dad came from a more worldly background in that
he had left early and gone on the road and traveled all over the country
playing music.
3-16-95
The
ethic that they developed was self-taught, didn't receive it from their own
parents... They passed on certain ethics to their kids. Well, at least I can recall that. They would recite things like ... You don't
steal, you don’t lie and those things were passed on.. But they weren’t able to
maintain the kind of, I don’t know what you call it, sort of a coveting
lifestyle where parents are real concerned with kids and activities.
For
instance, I joined Little League myself one day. I went down as a 12 year old
and figured out how to do sign up and did it and forged my dad’s name and
started playing baseball.. Because my
dad was never around to do that kind of thing with me... And, my
neighbors would take me on fishing trips, not my dad. You know, that kind of thing. I didn’t resent it that he couldn’t do
it. I just accepted it that a) he
wasn’t around or b) he didn’t really want to.
When
I moved in with Isadora and Ward, my views of things, you know, how I thought
the world went, changed. I first learned it was not a locked deal. Ward would make fun of some of my views on
life.... For instance, with my mom we
did our own laundry, we bought our own clothes, that sort of thing... Isadora would make my bed, and I’d freak
out, I’d say, “What are you doing... You’re in my room, why are you doing
that?” She’d say, “Why you bed needs making.” and I’d say “Make it? Why, just throw the blankets in a corner..
“ You know that’s how I grew up --
didn’t make your bed, didn’t sleep with a cover sheet... I don’t today but
that’s how I grew up.
Wards
gave me a close-up example of what that kind of family life was... To actually
have Christmases where the whole family was over. Where everyone sits around and chats , makes small conversation
and opens gifts. That was interesting
and necessary for me. It calmed me down a lot....
Dad’s
brothers are more family oriented.. But no, I
didn’t get (that family stuff) from them. Had No contact with them. Occasionally, as a kid they’d come to visit.
When
I turned 18 and moved to LA I started to make my own life... Started working jobs and going to school and
when got to 21 I got married and stayed married for ten years the first time...
Basically never really moved back home again and never really had contact with
family except for sporadic phone call, or once and awhile see my mom when
she happened to be near by..
On how he saw
his political dad:
He thought of
himself not as the shaker-mover as
people thought him to be, but he thought of himself as promoter, person who
would see how to motivate and rally energy and get it to go down on a certain
thing. It’s ironic because in a certain
way, he was real successful because he didn’t just bring the idealism. Idealism alone is fine, but idealism is not
enough to get it accomplished. If you
look at Ralph Nader closely and examine his personality you’ll see that there’s
that little kernel of anger that pisses him off.... My dad had that too. It’s not clear what it’s about, but it’s
clearly a thing that says that he won't tolerate something... With my dad there
were a few things he wouldn't tolerate.
One of them was what he thought of as being crooked behavior.... He always says that, he hates that.
I don't know how
much idealism he actually had when it came to the causes. I think mainly he was into the process. The bigger the mountain and harder it looked
the more he wanted to go crack it. And
especially when it came to the political web, the network that people construct
around politics. You’ll notice that he
sued companies like Standard Oil as well as city councils. It wasn’t just pure politics for him. I think
a lot of it was just chiseling away at the power base.
It
wasn’t also just crusaderism either. Also, I think it was his perspective that he could create a campaign; he could make that happen from nothing; he
could build it like he could build a house....
"I'm promoter..
I Promoter..” He Did it in the car business, did it at Cameron Park (Cameron
Ranch Development in Sacramento area).
On
an example of his Dad’s promotional ability:
My
dad worked for Sungstead Car Dealership just before the owner’s managing son
went to jail. Manager was son of a lady
who owned a lot of car dealerships. She
got them through marriage, etc. She was old lady terror type. Her name was Mrs. Wearing...
Her
husband was called ‘Daring Dick Wearing.’
Because of that she ended up with several car businesses -- million
dollar businesses. One of her sons was
owner or manager of Sungstead Car Dealership. Some how dad got involved with
their business. (Ed became Manager of
Used Car Sales)
Then
Mrs. Wearing’s son, the General Manager, got jailed for turning odometers
back. Everyone always suspected it but
when he actually got caught -- it was a big deal..
When
Mrs. Wearing’s son got caught, my dad, instead of caving into the disaster… Well, this is a cool example of my dad
taking on the challenge of what should have been a disaster and making it a
miracle... It should have been a disaster.
Here is the guy, he owns Sungstead (Car Dealership) going to jail, and
no one should buy cars there anymore. What does he (Dad, Ed Koupal) do? He goes out and buys all these jail shirts
with stripes on ‘em, surplus rifles and helicopters and police cars and has a
three-day weekend jail sale.
He ships cars in from LA and literally sells cars right off the truck, because
so many people are interested.
In other words, he
really had a command of publicity and knew how to make it work.... Here’s a guy
that understands how to work the press and oh, by the way, he’s going to get
into politics and show you politicos how it’s done.
Gingrich
reminds me of my dad a lot. He talks
fast, full of energy, gives short, curt statements designed to get a reaction
from you.... The two are very much alike except Gingrich is more articulate. My dad would use words wrong all the time.
But he’d have the same kind of approach to it.
Basically he had a lot of tools and he used them very effectively. The jail sale was all about
“Turning disaster into sales”.
…Look
at my Dad’s action..... They defy protocol…
He’d do almost the opposite…
From
standpoint of lying, he had this huge hard on.
He
was in car business and hated it because everyone in the car business was
crooked. For that reason, he wanted
out....
I told
story of Ed eating a Standard Oil Exec in a debate at KGO Radio in San
Francisco. Afterwards I commented on
how Ed had caught the guy in lying and destroyed him and how good it was that
“We never lie like they do...” Ed
looked at me with his wake-up look and said, “What are you talking about? I knew that guy was lying, so I lied because
I knew he would keep lying. He lied
again, so I lied. He kept going and I
pulled the rug on him. I lied because
Standard oil Exec lied.... He was putting out bullshit... so I gave him some of
his own. His problem was that I pulled
the rug on him and he got caught with with crap all over…”
I
was so naive I said to myself, Jesus is that right?
Cecil:
No, he’s pulling your leg. That was one
of the interesting things about the guy. On the one hand, just as you start to
crawl up a little bit of idealism inside of you, he’d try to knock it down. He
was like this huge realist all the time and he knew what the real world
was. Face it, this guy came up through the
real world, the guy didn’t finish high school. So from that standpoint he might
have sensed that you were getting a little sheen of idealism around you and
that you weren’t going to be lean and tough enough to take on some of the bad
guys, so he’d tell you something like that...
He would do that. I used to watch him do that with some other people in
People’s Lobby too, some of the young kids around him. He wouldn’t like really angle it. I mean I don’t think he was that sharp, but
he’s definitely a realistic guy. He
understood that these guys who had these facades, these political figures were
really down inside battling turds who really knew how to go for the jugular
behind the scenes. He probably wanted
to make sure that you didn’t get too idealistic...In a way, I prefer to look at
his actions more than a lot of times what he was saying, although he didn’t
really have a loose tongue that way. He
would constantly use sharp language and curt, aggressive statements that would
put off most people because you don’t run around every day listening to people
call you a ‘jerk’ of a ‘shit’ or whatever.
You just don’t do that in ordinary society, but he didn’t mind doing
that in really odd situations like in a board meeting where it had a protocol
that he would just defy. And a big part of what he did which people didn’t
understand was just that -- defy protocol.
You know where certain propriety might have been called for -- he would
do almost the opposite.
But
from the standpoint of lying he had this huge hard on, and he would call it
that for --- basically, for you didn’t steal, didn’t lie and ultimately.. It wasn’t like you do the right thing like a
soldier, but it was more like... Well,
for example he was in the car business and he really hated it, and my Mom said
to me one day the reason he hated it was because everyone in the car business
was crooked. And I said okay. The implication was that there was big
pressure to be crooked in the car business,
so for that reason he wanted
out.
He might have done some things. I don’t think
he ever did anything big, but he might have done some white stuff. You know mostly to just push it along. But he wouldn’t for a minute accept even in
himself that that was either a thing to do officially or consciously -- that
that was okay to do. It might have been
expedient or necessary of something like that.
I don’t think he was real... You
know a lot of times in politics sometimes people will justify a really bad act
by its so-called outcome. You know the
ends justify the means, and I don’t know that you could go that far with
him. He did some odd-ball things,
shocking things that weren’t in themselves shady or crooked or corrupt. For instance, he never took money from anybody,
which ultimately, if someone is going to be corrupt, he’s going to take money
from somebody.
He
had his share of bucks in the past, but that wasn’t his motivation. He wasn’t into that. He wanted to chisel the
power... you know, really, I don’t think anybody will understand his
motivation. He wouldn’t divulge
it. And if he told anyone it was my
mom. She was his ultimate
confidant. And they were like this
inseparable pair. And they would
strategize. I’d hear them in there talking all night. They were deliberate about everything they did. Sometimes you’d think something was an
accident, but most of the time it was not; it was usually thought out or
discussed between the two of them and they never really completely confided in
anyone else in a serous way. I never
saw that happen. And they cut their own
kids out too.
Tell
you what they thought about Nader?
They
liked Ralph. I think my Dad even admired him and you didn’t hear my dad say
that about a lot of people...Even real hard working guys who worked their asses
off for him, he didn’t necessarily admire that way. He might of liked them, encouraged them, be loyal to them, but
when it came to actually admiring somebody I sort of saw my dad do a little
bit, I think, do the hero worship with Ralph.
I think he thought Ralph was swell.
I
said at Board meetings Ed would knock Ralph:
That’s so funny.
He could say that about anybody at anytime and part of it you couldn’t rally
take serious, because a lot of that was all the time to even keep himself from
getting too idealistic, or too unhoned.
It was to keep the edge on. Editorial
in the Times one time called him “one of the last angry men” and that really is
it. It’s a great phrase. The guy was pissed off all the time. He was mad in private and mad in public.
I said that Ed
had once told me that he, “Gets up in morning, reads LA Times, gets pissed off
and that starts my day.”
That’s
it. And then he goes to bed pissed.
Lots
of that was to keep the edge on ... He was one of the last angry men....
Once I said in
while we were walking the streets in Santa Cruz..”well, at least they couldn’t
buy you off...” And he stunned me when he said something like, “If they had
been smart, they could have bought me off easy. If they would have given me my own 21 piece band, I would have
been out of their hair the next day.”
That
tells you something about his true love. If there was something he could have
stayed dedicated to it would have been music probably, which I didn’t hear too
much of growing up.
In
fact, did you know that when he was dying, when he was almost dead. in fact the last 5 or ten minutes of his
life he had to pop in one of his tapes.
I think it was a Glen Miller ...
They brought a little cassette recorder into his room, because he wanted
to hear jazz. And that was not a common
thing. He didn’t own a stereo and didn’t sit down and listen to jazz or
anything. When he was dying the last thing he wanted to hear was jazz. I think it was Glen Miller. That should tell you right there.
“We
got it made babe, were among his last words?”
That’s
right. Those words are carved on the copper box that his ashes are in... “We’ve
got it made.”
Cemetery
in Altena Dena and he’s in the plexi-glass covered mausoleum. In the box and
there is the phrase in there...